Saturday, January 29, 2011

On The Ebb and Flow of Constitutional Interpretation


I find it fascinating, from a historical perspective, how the Constitution of the United States has been interpreted within the confines of American political discourse over the centuries. 

From “strict Constitutionalism” to the concept of a “living document”, there are many ways to interpret the sometimes arcane language of this document (certainly “arcane” within the terms of 21st century American English), and I am confident that there is enough historical precedent for reasonable men and women to allow for these interpretations of it’s language.  I hope in this extended post to document a number of those trends, acknowledge their validity within the discipline of constitutional law, and give some background for my own personal interpretation of the Constitution and it’s place within our political conversation.

That said, I should first acknowledge that I am not a lawyer nor do I have any particular background in constitutional law.  Quite frankly, in that regard, I am much like many of those on the Right that have taken to pithy Facebook posts concerning it’s Amendments and participate in Constitution study groups: they have no more specialized skill at interpreting the Constitution than I do!  That said, I’ve done my share of reading over the years and I hope to bring a bit of historical perspective to the many ways in which that document has been interpreted, starting from the founders and moving forward to today’s movement that seeks to “Return to the values of the Constitution”, and the ebb and flow of that movement over the last 200 or so years.



Perfect?


To say that the Constitution was a “negotiated document”, with the framers having many differing opinions and making many compromises, is an understatement.  Virtually every member of the Constitutional Convention of 1787 was rarely shy about writing to friends, family, and constituents back in their respective States, and letting them know what they perceived as the folly or wrong-headedness of their opponents’ views.  However, I find Benjamin Franklin’s comments of September 17th, 1787 to be particularly enlightening:

“Mr. President, I confess that there are several parts of this constitution which I do not at present approve, but I am not sure I shall never approve them.  For having lived long, I have experienced many instances of being obliged by better Information, or fuller Consideration, to change Opinions even on important Subjects, which I once thought right, but found to be otherwise”

Franklin hoped:

“…that every member of the Convention who may still have Objections to it, would with me, on this occasion doubt a little of his own Infallibility, and to make manifest our Unanimity, put his name to this Instrument.”

In his own very unique and self-deprecating manner, Franklin says quite clearly that he may just change his mind, given new circumstances and new information.

Many elements of the language of the Constitution are not easy to understand, and this is not just from our perspective hundreds of years later.  From the beginning, many in the Anti-Federalist movement felt that the document was so difficult to understand that it “amounted to a conspiracy against the understanding of a plain man” and was “willfully incomprehensible.”  One Anti-Federalist wrote “The constitution of a wise and free people, ought to be as evident to simple reason, as the letters of our alphabet”.  Patrick Henry argued, “A constitution ought to be, like a beacon, held up to the public eye, so as to be understood by every man.”  Further, he thought that the Constitution as drafted was “of such an intricate and complicated nature, that no man on this earth can know its real operation.”  These Anti-Federalists’ complaints, and many more issues, caused the ratification to become a real challenge:  Rhode Island rejected it in a popular referendum;  and in state ratification conventions it narrowly passed (89 to 79 in Virginia, 187 to 168 in Massachusetts, 30 to 27 in New York, etc.).

And the complaints didn’t end after ratification.  The widely held view of the Jeffersonian Republicans, expressed by one of it’s members, was that “The Federal Constitution by a fair construction is a good one prinsapaly, but I have no dout but that the Convention who made it intended to destroy our free governments by it, or they neaver would have spent 4 Months in making such an inexpliset thing.”

What am I trying to get across with the above bit of early American history?  The simple point is that the Constitution did not fall from the Heavens, directly from the Hand of God (regardless of what Warren Harding said about “divine inspiration”…<g>):  it was a grimy back-and-forth political process to arrive at an imperfect document that many held their nose and voted for anyway, acknowledging their fallibility and finding common ground.  Should we treat that document as dead, codified, and never to be amended or changed?  27 Amendments later, with the first 10 passing in relatively short order in 1791, I think it’s fairly clear that the document wasn’t perfect when signed.



The Changes Required


While from the very beginning, there were arguments concerning the clarity of the Constitution’s language, there were changes in America that occurred as this young nation matured that could, in all probably, not have been foreseen by the framers.
As Justice Stephen Breyer said “ “If you go back to the end of the 18th century and you examine what the founders thought…they didn’t think of the Internet, they didn’t think of television, and they didn’t think of the radio or automobiles”.  Here in our 21st century perspective, it’s easy to see what subjects the framers could not possibly have known the courts would have to rule on:  banks, women, free markets, privacy, wiretapping, and more.  After all, they were framing rules for a small collection of mostly rural states, not a modern superpower. 

Putting aside the first 10 Amendments to the Constitution, i.e. The Bill of Rights, let’s look at other changes that may or may not have been unforeseen, but were required.  What is striking about this document, in many ways, is what was NOT said or established as law.

One item I find of personal interest, given that I am an agnostic, is that in the roughly forty four hundred words, “God” is not mentioned once.  Benjamin Rush once complained to Samuel Adams that “Perhaps an acknowledgement might be made of his goodness or of his providence in the proposed amendments.”

The word “white” wasn’t in the Constitution, yet Senator Stephen Douglas was still quite confident that the federal government was “made by white men, for the benefit of white men and their posterity forever.”  In 1857, the Supreme Court ruled, in regards to black men, “They are not included, and were not intended to be included.”  In comments after the landmark Brown v. Board of Education ruling, Senator James Eastland remarked, “There is nothing in the Constitution that gives the Congress, the President, or the Supreme Court the right to declare that white and colored children must attend the same public schools.”

Can this “inexpliset thing” be interpreted in more than one way?  I’m quite confident that reasonable and rational men and women can disagree on precisely what it says, and there may well be truth in both of their opposing opinions. And it becomes clear why each side of this debate can claim that the other has “no real knowledge of the Constitution”.  It’s this dichotomy of “strict constitutionalism” and a “living document” that has swung, like a pendulum, back and forth for hundreds of years.  Justice Felix Frankfurter, nominated to the court in 1938, said that it “is most significantly not a document but a stream of history”.  Justice Frankfurter could certainly be called a “non-originalist”, yet he was the staunchest supporter of State’s rights and one of the most outspoken advocates of judicial restraint in the Court’s history.  While it’s easy to look at this in “black and white” terms, the reality is quite a bit more complex…

What is at the heart of these opposing interpretations and what is their genesis?


Two Schools


There are 5 elements involved in interpreting the Constitution:

1.  The actual text and structure of the Constitution.
2.  The “intention” of those that framed or proposed the section of concern.
3.  Prior judicial precedent.
4.  The consequences of alternative interpretations:  social, political, or economic.
5.  “Natural law”.

There is general agreement that the first three elements are appropriate for the interpretation of the Constitution, though there are clearly differences in terms of the priority given to each of them, particularly when they lead in opposing directions.  There is a good deal of disagreement as to how much the consequences of a particular ruling should be taken into consideration when making the ruling.  And natural law, i.e. “God’s Law”, is rarely discussed in Constitutional circles today.

Those that put highest precedence on the text of the Constitution and the original intent of the framers are generally called “Originalists”;  and those that put greater weight upon precedent and consequences are known in constitutional law circles as “Non-Originalists” (very clever name, eh?), though that’s hardly how they’re described in the popular vernacular.

The term “Living Constitution” is actually a rather negative term coined by conservatives in the very early 20th century, and indicative of how ludicrous they felt the concept was.  One might point to Woodrow Wilson and his comments in 1913 as one of those in the “Progressive Movement” that felt the “Originalist” interpretation of the Constitution did not suit the “modern era”:

All the progressives ask or desire is permission --- in an era when ‘development,’ ‘evolution,’ is the scientific word --- to interpret the Constitution according to the Darwinian principle;  all they ask is a recognition of the fact that a nation is a living thing.”

This concept of the nation as “a living thing” requiring governance that changed with the challenges at hand, seems a not unreasonable idea.  However, it was challenged quite vociferously by organizations such as the Sons of the American Revolution, the National Security League, and the National Association for Constitutional Government.  If fact, in the early 1920’s, James Montgomery Beck, known as “Mr. Constitution” for the number of originalist books he published, declared at that time that “the Constitution is in graver danger today than at any other time in the history of America.”  Personally, I believe that the originalists have felt that every era has been of the gravest danger to the Constitution, or at the very least, to their understanding and interpretation of it.

This chasm deepened during the New Deal, and in fact informs most of the discussion to this day.  Thurman Arnold, who eventually became F. D. R.’s Assistant Attorney General, wrote in 1935 “Hopeful people today wave the flag.  Timid people wave the Constitution….the only bulwark against change.”

In 1986 and before, Edwin Meese, Ronald Reagan’s Attorney General made many a speech, vociferously defending originalism, and in fact Reagan nominated Antonin Scalia to the Supreme Court, widely considered to be the strongest originalist voice on the court, that very year.

And last year, Meese and members of The Heritage Foundation, “The National Review”, and the Federalist Society met to sign what they were calling “The Mount Vernon Statement”.  This document was a call to arms for conservatives to return the nation to “founding principles”, as they were “under sustained attack” in “our culture, our universities and our politics.”  They said that “The self-evident truths of 1776 have been supplanted by the notion that no such truths exist.  The federal government today ignores the limits of the Constitution, which is increasingly dismissed as obsolete and irrelevant.”  While that makes for excellent news copy, and is clearly fodder for conservative blogs, is that truly what the “non-originalists” think?  The originalists presume that there’s one and only one way to interpret the Constitution:  the specific wording of the document and the “intentions” of the framers as evinced by letters and other supporting documents.  Is that truly the only way the Constitution can be interpreted?  But possibly even more important is the question, under this originalist point of view, as to what is “unconstitutional”.  Is a law or doctrine “unconstitutional” because it violates what was specifically expressed in the wording of the Constitution itself, which can of course be the subject of discussion, given the vague wording of some of the Articles;  or is that law or doctrine “unconstitutional” because it is simply not mentioned in the Constitution?  I believe this is the crux of the argument.

Jamal Greene, Professor of Law at Columbia University, writing about the rulings of Justice Antonin Scalia, said that “If democratic legitimacy is the measure of a sound constitutional interpretive practice, then Justice Scalia needs to give an account of why and how rote obedience to the commitments of voters two centuries distant and wildly different in racial, ethnic, sexual, and cultural composition can be justified on democratic grounds.” 

Does it seem unreasonable to believe that no written constitution can anticipate all the means by which a future government might oppress the people?  Is it reasonable to assume that judges may need to add to the body of laws to ultimately respect the nature of the freedoms that the framers originally outlined, even though those laws, or the potential loss of freedoms that new circumstances might engender that are what those laws grow out of, could not possibly have been thought of by the framers?  Are we indeed a “living nation” that is changing and growing?

Frankly, as you read the Constitution, the language is not only antiquated, but at many points is vague, and frequently ambiguous.  It seems possible to me that judicial precedent can be found to support either side.  And in those circumstances, is it unreasonable to consider which will offer the greatest good for the public?

I personally think that it is far too easy for originalists to lose sight of the forest for the trees.  Quite frankly, it seems to me that the focus ought to be on the higher purpose, the true spirit of the protection of liberties that was at the core of the Constitution.


And Now?


Those that are members of, or find themselves sympathizing with, the various “Tea Party” organizations have put respect for the Constitution at the heart of their beliefs.  Some might even say they have taken to “worshipping” the Constitution as a “perfect document”, not unlike fundamentalist evangelical Christians see the Bible as the “literal Word of God”, Council of Nicaea be damned.  This interesting similarity is something worth pursuing at greater length in another post, but for now, I’ll just say that I find the “Constitution study groups” quite like “Bible study” groups among those on the “Religious Right” in contemporary American politics.  In fact, the market for constitutional study guides has exploded in the last few years:  “The Constitution Made Easy”, “U.S. Constitution for Dummies”, “The Penguin Guide to the United States Constitution”, “The Annotated U.S. Constitution and Declaration of Independence”, and more.  These “guides” all attempt to put the arcane language of the late 18th century American colonies into contemporary vernacular, but many of them do so with not inconsequential political “spin”.  The Constitution these “Tea Party” ralliers are learning, in many cases, bears scant resemblance to the forty four hundred words of the original document.  Again, that’s another post all together…. :>)

What I believe we see happening in our politics today, is a conflict, in many ways, between the Baby Boom generation and their elders, and the nature of the changing United States.  What many of those in their later years see as “traditional American values” are being superceded by the new values of our young, and by the changing demographic of our society.  In many ways, I find the “Tea Party” and it’s adherence to the “intent” of the framers of the Constitution, indeed their studying that document as if it were the “word of God”, to be a reaction to these changing times and their difficulty with adapting and adjusting to those changes.  As Sarah Palin said in a riff on the Obama campaign’s motto of “Change You Can Believe In”:  “We’ll keep clinging to our Constitution, our guns, and our religion, and you can keep the change.”  While that comment is meant as hyperbole, it is, to my mind, very telling of the core of this movement.

By no means do I mean to dismiss those that fly the flag and thump the Constitution, nor do I minimize the significance of their opinions, but I think it has become far too easy for many to call anything they don’t like “unconstitutional”, without having a solid understanding that takes into consideration the almost 230 years of it’s interpretation.  As long as those on the Right consider any scholar at one of the U.S.’s pre-eminent universities or any journalist that attempts to be as objective as possible and respects the traditional values of fact checking and information vetting to be part of the “liberal elite”, and summarily dismisses their well-considered positions, we will not be able to have an insightful discussion about the interpretation of the Constitution, or any other subject that can’t be summed up in simple two sentence soundbites.  The term “intellectual” simply shouldn’t be used as a political slur, particularly given the depth of study that our Constitution requires.

It’s time to look a bit deeper into the issues of our time and rely a bit less on placard-sized thoughts…

26 comments:

  1. '"This chasm deepened during the New Deal, and in fact informs most of the discussion to this day. Thurman Arnold, who eventually became F. D. R.’s Assistant Attorney General, wrote in 1935 “Hopeful people today wave the flag. Timid people wave the Constitution….the only bulwark against change.”'

    That is funny. Today, hopeful people wave both the flag and the Constitution. If the Constitution is a 'bulwark' against change, in this nation and world of diluted relativism where 'rights' and 'principles' are determined not by rational validation with a solemn commitment to individual rights and freedoms, but by whims and needs and rationalizations such as "the founders never thought about the internet" --- I would say this is testament to the failed, culturally subversive policies of the progressive movement -- which began in America even as the ink was drying on the DOC.

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  2. What your long blog tells me about you is what I've said all along - you are not a centrist. You are a progressive, which is a leftist position. But leave that alone and let's look at what you said - or didn't say.

    Here is what I have been asking you since you first started your blog and claimed to be very knowledgeable about the Constitution:

    "Also, since you've done all that reading, can you tell me the basis for our Constitution? What is the idea it is based on? What is the primary role of the federal government, according to those who wrote and ratified the Constitution? From the writings of which philosophers/writers did our founders base the idea for our Constitution?"

    I still didn't see an answer to a single one of those questions.

    As a college freshman research paper, I'd give your blog entry a B. I would have given it a higher grade, but you don't cite your sources.

    However, as a defense of the ideas about the Constitution you seem to have, I'd give this blog a D, maybe a D-. Speaking from a linguistic standpoint, I will say that you do not understand the language or how language works and changes. The fact that you can't understand some of the terms in the Constitution doesn't mean that no one can.

    You seem to have a problem with the language of the time. For example, you quoted Franklin as saying this:

    “…that every member of the Convention who may still have Objections to it, would with me, on this occasion doubt a little of his own Infallibility, and to make manifest our Unanimity, put his name to this Instrument.”

    And you say that he means this: "In his own very unique and self-deprecating manner, Franklin says quite clearly that he may just change his mind, given new circumstances and new information."

    That is not what he said at all. He is saying that even though the others may have objections, they should consider, as he has done, that they might be wrong and sign it.

    If this is an indication of why you don't understand the Constitution, then you might want to consider paying attention to linguists who can help you understand the language as it was used at the time.

    I'll provide a detailed assessment of the rest of your errors later. I don't have that many free hours left today.

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  3. @ Kurt - Not my own opinion, i.e. the quote from Arnold, but I do think that this has some truth even now, hence the reason for my Palin quote. I'm not certain how the progressive movement is "culturally subversive" in your eyes, but given that the framers were quite substantially influenced by the thinkers of the "Enlightenment", many of them may well have had beliefs that you would call "progressive"....

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  4. You are equivocating there, Dirty. The word "progressive" as part of the term "progressive movement" is not the same as the meaning of the word "progressive" as we might use it to apply to the framers of the Constitution. In any case, it would be more accurate -- and eliminate the risk of equivocating -- if we simply said that the framers were products of the Enlightenment.

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  5. @ Fred - If the only thing you are interested in is finding some pigeonhole to put my political thoughts into, I'm not going to play your game. There's no single position that puts one in the center. I have a good number of centrist friends, and we disagree on certain subjects: being in the center doesn't mean we're little cookie cutter versions of complex humans. I know you'd love to think in black-and-white terms, but that's not the real world. Does my understanding of the Constitution lean more towards the progressive viewpoint than yours? Probably so. Wouldn't be hard to be left of you....

    Secondly, I laid out my thoughts on the Constitution, and the simplistic interpretation of it that seems to be popular among those on the right today. I didn't set out to answer your questions.

    Third, by commenting about the history of those that found the Constitution to be an "inexpliset thing", going back to the Anit-Federalists, what makes you think that I have no understanding of language and it's subtleties? I don't have an issue with 18th century American English and interpreting it: I studied Hebrew and Koine Greek in order to understand the Bible more accurately, so learning a bit about 18th century linguistic formats isn't a stretch. That doesn't mean, however, that there aren't ambiguous passages that allow for interpretation. How about the 2nd Amendment? Throughout the 20th century, the general interpretation, on both the conservative and liberal sides, was that it enumerated the rights of citizens to form militias, not an individual's right to own firearms. It was considered as narrow a provision as the 3rd Amendment's protection against being forced to quarter troops in your home. Even Robert Bork said that it's function was "to guarantee the right of states to form militias, not for individuals to bear arms." Is that the general interpretation now? I don't think so. Who's right and who's wrong? Maybe both. Maybe neither.

    As to what Benjamin Franklin said in the quote I offered, I'm sorry Fred, but did you read the earlier part of that quote that was just a few lines up from the one you quoted?

    "I confess that there are several parts of this constitution which I do not at present approve, but I am not sure I shall never approve them. For having lived long, I have experienced many instances of being obliged by better Information, or fuller Consideration, to change Opinions even on important Subjects, which I once thought right, but found to be otherwise”

    As I said, Franklin makes it quite clear that he might just well change his mind, "given new circumstances and new information." Not sure how I could have made it any clearer for you...

    As to the rest of my "errors", are you really that much of a pompous gasbag, i.e. to believe that your opinions are right and the only possible interpretation, and that therefore mine must be wrong? If anyone is coming off as an "elitist", it would certainly be you! You can certainly disagree with my personal choices on interpretation, as I'm sure you do; however, in the history of Constitutional law, there have been _many_ valid points of view, many _completely_ divergent from each other. That was the ENTIRE point of this post and the history I laid out prior to elucidating my own personal opinion. it seems to have completely eluded you.

    And one quick question for you, Fred: where have you studied Constitutional law? Or have you just been reading from the Glenn Beck book list?

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  6. "...many valid points of view, many completely divergent from each other." Break that down. I can paint you a scenario that would look exactly as the nation does today, following that kind of package-deal, relativistic, subjective non-absolutist logic.

    Name some 'absolutes' upon which we can all agree regarding the intent of the Framers. We'll go from there.

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  7. @ Kurt - First of all, I haven't heard any one spout Kantian "absolutist logic" since the discussions in the History of Philosophy classes at university. Really? You think absolutes apply? Then why bother having so many justices on the Supreme Court, if a clerk could apply a simple set of absolutes?

    You want something to start with? How 'bout my 2nd Amendment comments in the reply to Fred? Let's start there.

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  8. Dirty, my point is, and has always been, that you don't have an understanding of the philosophy and principles behind the Constitution, and you simply proved that once again.

    Of course you didn't set out to answer my questions. I'm becoming convinced that you aren't able to. If you can answer them, then I might give some consideration to your personal "interpretation" of the Constitution. Until then, I have to assume that you're just musing.

    Yes, I read the other Franklin quote -- the one that appeared under a separate heading. That changes absolutely nothing. You still misread what Franklin said. He meant exactly what I said he meant. The doubt he is talking about is a doubt of their infallibility, which means to consider that they just might be wrong - *about their objections* to the Constitution - and to make support for it unanimous. The mind changing refers to his objections, not his support.

    No, I never studied Constitutional law. I did study the Constitution, though. The fact that you don't seem to know the difference just proves my point about your knowledge of the Constitution.

    Instead of your long musing, why don't you just answer my questions and show everyone how much you know about and understand the Constitution?

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  9. Dirty, I will brush past your reference to "Kantian absolutism" because while referencing some class you took long ago, you only show your ignorance of what Kantian regarded as absolutes---which he denied the mind is capable of knowing.

    I was refering to an Aristotlean premise based in and proceeding from the Law of Identity -- you know, a thing is what it is? It can't be both a tree and a frog,after all.

    As to the second amendment, it has its roots in Common English law of the land; it was reaffirmed magnificently in the BOR, and despite the 'dissenting opinions' of certain Justices who want to separate the right of an individual to bear arms from the idea that civilian militias are protected under the amendment, which is logically absurd, since obviously if an individual is denied ownership of (or the right to 'bear') arms, then he must await issuance of same by some authoritarian group which, I suppose, keeps them under lock and key and decides when and if it appears justified to issue the guns. Who appoints these 'guardians' of the arms? What if the armory into which all arms are stored in the event a militia need be formed is taken control of by a group which means not to empower the citizens but to harness them to a purpose with which the individuals disagree?

    All that aside, the right to self defense is either an 'absolute' right, or it isn't. And 'arms', whether pocket knives or semi-automatic weapons, are means of self defense, and by parsing or subjectively analyzing difference between 'gun ownership' and keeping a baseball bat under your bed in case you hear a burglar in the night you do not change the fundamental right of each individual to protect themselves.

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  10. @ Kurt - First off, well stated logic in your paragraph in regards to the absurdity of an armed militia without the individual right to bear arms. It's nice to actually hear a well reasoned argument, rather than fruitless name calling.

    However, your phrase "you only show your ignorance of what Kantian regarded as absolutes" is incorrect both in your use of Immanuel Kant's name and in your belief that I'm "ignorant". So much for reasoned argument. For what it's worth, I completed a double major in Philosophy and Religion at Chapman University (under two of the best known scholars of their time: the late Dr. Fred O. Francis, one of the finest Pauline scholars of the 20th century; and Dr. David Dodson, regarded as one of the leading Hegelian experts of that period). My opinions on philosophy are based upon more than "some class you took long ago", as I continue to read and study to this day. Kant was probably my least favorite, as I found his "categorical imperative" to be a house of cards built upon a shaky table. Plato, Descartes, Kierkegaard, and Nietzsche were the men whose thoughts fascinated me most. Yes, an odd grouping.

    That said, I am less interested in a discussion of the arguments for and against a particular interpretation of the 2nd Amendment, but was merely using it as an example of a turn of phrase that left an opening for those interpretations. I stand by that.

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  11. @ Fred - Once again, you take the narrow view and lose the forest for the trees. Franklin was not only discussing objections, but was giving a quite concise statement on changeability. To paraphrase, I find that there are errors here, but, who knows, someday I might change my mind. I often do. I've you've ever read Franklin's statements on the floor of the Constitutional Convention or read anything of his time as ambassador in France, you'd know that he swaddled his arguments in affability, "as if an argument were a colicky baby." There was always a caveat. "Thus I consent, Sir, to this Constitution because I expect no better, and because I am not sure, that it is not the best."

    You continually make assumptions about me, yet never seem to really say anything about your OWN interpretation of the Constitution nor establish any documentation for what you think, other than to tell me how much you've studied it. Either make a serious argument, or move along.

    I happen to think that centuries of judicial precedent should actually be considered, and I think I've established a history of that interpretation. Put your OWN ideas out, instead of sitting on the sidelines, and grousing that I'm not doing what you want me to.

    Reasoned and dispassionate arguments are what an adult conversation is actually about.

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  12. Dirty, you cannot claim Franklin said such and such and then tell the person who corrects your error that that person is taking a narrow view. That is beyond absurd. You used Franklin's words to support some opinion you have, but Franklin did NOT say what you claim he said. His point was essentially the opposite of what you claimed.

    Do I need to parse his sentence in more detail for you? You are flat out wrong in what you are saying about his words. There is no opinion involved. If you tell me that you believe there are 9 planets orbiting the sun, I can't say that my opinion of what you said is that there are not 9 planets orbiting the sun.

    Not only have I read Franklin's other statements, but I've studied language. I'm a linguist and did a great deal of work analyzing early English, so don't try to tell me that I don't know what Franklin was trying to say. You made a mistake. Man up and admit it.

    I don't have some unique interpretation. YOU are the one who claims that conservatives have an inaccurate interpretation of the Constitution and you have said that from the get go.

    In order for you to support that claim, you have to demonstrate that you understand the Constitution and you haven't done it. There is ZERO reason for me to defend a thing.

    I'm not grousing that you aren't doing what I want you to do. I am merely pointing to to your readers that you are unable to support the claims that you have made about your depth of understanding of the Constitution.

    If you want to continue demonstrating that you don't understand it, what do I care? It's no skin off my nose. But your lack of knowledge is becoming more and more transparent to anyone who might stumble upon your blog.

    I have made two assessments about you: 1) you are not a centrist and 2) you do not understand the Constitution. Those are rational and reasonable assessments based on the things you say. They are not assumptions.

    Trying to get me to explain myself, when I'm not the one who made those outlandish claims about the Constitution is a logic fallacy called "shifting the burden."

    It has become painfully obvious that you simply cannot answer my questions about the Constitution. As I said from the very beginning, if you knew the Constitution so well, you'd be able to answer the questions in ten minutes. Instead, you have spent weeks avoiding them.

    Now you want to just tell me you don't have to those very fundamental questions and that I need to explain my views. No I don't. As I said, you are the one who claimed that conservatives are wrong and don't understand the Constitution. I've simply asked you to prove it. It's obvious that you can't.

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  13. Btw, Dirty, do you know the difference between a Constitutional lawyer and a Constitutional scholar. I'm betting you don't. And that is a reasonable conclusion based on what you have been saying. Prove me wrong.

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  14. Dirty,
    "Plato, Descartes, Kierkegaard, and Nietzsche were the men whose thoughts fascinated me most." Not such an odd grouping, really. Your whole method of presenting arguments is, however, kind of a "house of cards", owing more to Kant than you admit. I have already surmised your philosophy derived from Plato.

    People with above average education usually follow into two groups: Those who revel in Plato or those who looked for consistent validation of their epistemological beliefs, i.e., Aristotleans. It's as easy to pick out as whether a person is a behaviorist or a cogntive therapy fan. Coupling a philosophy major with one in religion strikes me as funny, because the former has pretty much surrendered to the latter. I mean, who listens to philosopher's anymore? From Kant forward, philosophy self destructed.

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  15. Interesting, Kurt. I'm in the Aristotle camp.

    Dirty, if you ran across a 14th century story about a "nice gossip," what would you expect the story to be about? I'll bet you wouldn't be expecting it to be about a foolish godmother, but that is exactly what it would be about. Trying to put modern meanings on words in a text when those words had different meanings at the time the text was written is...well, "nice" in its 14th century meaning.

    Part of understanding a text, whether it's the Constitution or the words of Franklin, involves understanding the syntax and word definitions of the time the text was written. That is not a matter of interpretation. It's a matter of knowing language and language use.

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  16. Thank, Kurt. I guess Dirty doesn't want to actually engage in a discussion. Every time we knock down his arguments, he disappears for days and days. I'm sure he's terribly busy, but I sure do wish he'd answer those questions of mine about the Constitution. 'Course, after reading this blog entry, I'm more convinced than ever that he can't answer them -- he simply doesn't know the answers.

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  17. @ Kurt - Frankly, I'm not sure that people have _ever_ truly listened to philosopher's.... :>)

    And I appreciate your insight: I suppose I shouldn't be surprised, but I am nonetheless! Here's some information that's probably a bit too personal for a blog on politics, but I appreciate your thoughts, so what the heck.... :>)

    As to the order in which I pursued a double major, you are completely correct: I entered Chapman University as a fundamentalist Christian, intent upon studying the Bible and developed an intense desire to understand "the historical Jesus" within the cultural perspective of his time. To me, the thing that made the most sense was to understand as clearly as possible the situations in which Jesus made his comments, to read his words in the languages in which they were originally transcribed, to get a greater understanding of the specifics of the words used (yes, Fred: the word used in the context of the times actually means a great deal to me...), and to understand what it meant in the context of the social and political circumstances of his day. It seemed the most logical way to truly understand what his "message" was. To view his words literally, from our perspective 2000 years later, while having some value, seemed almost shallow. As I believe I mentioned in a previous post, I studied with the late Dr. Fred O. Francis, one of the leading Pauline scholars of the time, read parallel Gospels in Koine Greek, etc. I was nominated for and awarded the Layne Foundation grant: at the time, it was awarded to a small number of religion undergraduates, and would pay all the way through doctoral programs geared toward the ministry. I gave up my Cal Grants once I received that grant.

    Well, the more I studied, the more I realized how out of touch a good deal of the "organized denominations" were from the heart of what Jesus actually said (as best we understood). I had an extremely difficult time reconciling my faith with what I was learning (and will always have the utmost respect for Dr. Francis, as he was the most knowledgeable man I'd ever met when it came to historical biblical studies, but was also a very devout Christian man). I took a History of Philosophy course (one of four semesters required for the major), and found a home with those that were most concerned with the quest for answers, and not those that were certain they had _all_ the answers.... :>)

    I finished what was required of my Religion major, and shifted my studies to Philosophy, and focused on modern and existential philosophy (along with _many_ other classes: Metaphysics & Epistemology, Ethical Studies, four semesters of Logic, etc.). I was less than subtle in terms of discussing my disaffection with "The Church", and it came back to bite me: the Layne Foundation got wind of it and cancelled my funding. Hence, I had enough units to complete a B. A. in Religion and Philosophy, with a minor in Art, but had no money to finish and get my degrees.

    Ah well. Surprising that I mouthed off, huh? :>)

    Philosophy isn't exactly the best in terms of career moves, but I thought that maybe I'd open a little philosophy shop on the corner. You know: "Life's a Twinkie. That'll be $250 bucks!". Didn't quite work out that way. Now I'm in management on the tech side of the entertainment industry. Logical progression, eh?

    And more on Fred's posts later: I've been geeking out with my new Verizon iPhone 4...... :>)

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  18. Dirty,
    Interesting life path; thanks for sharing. Actually philosophy and any rational system of ethics got buried by variants of mysticism---including the mysticism that exhorts people to sacrifice for the 'common good', i.e., the mystics of collectivism---through the 1960's when the old left got usurped by the New Left all the while culture was exploding with multimillionaire rock stars and the political tides shifted into high gear with the Johnson-era escalation of Vietnam coincidental with creating the Great Society. How did America survive that frickin decade, anyhow? And when the New New left pressured America to finally pull out of Vietnam (a war I agree was immoral from the start) they didn't seem to realize that the blood of 2 million Cambodians was flowing into the killing fields at the hands of the North.

    But I digress. How did you go from mystic philosopher to tech manager, and for what kind of entertainment company? If you say you work for some kind of online porn site, I am gonna lose all 'faith' I almost had in humanity?

    Ahem...but, back to the issues of the Ebbs and the Flows of Consitutional debate, okay? Had the underlying 'philosophy' and system of rights and ethics been defined on rational foundations with no insertion of faith-based validations for the principles it put forth, there would have been little room for debate as to what it meant.
    However in the hierarchy of power that the COS used to build its case, it put Creation at the top with Man as the inheritor of natural rights endowed by same Creator, and proposed a system of government which would be subservient to both.
    I would say to you that our country has gone from a nation of sovereign citizens ('kings and queens, if you will) without slaves to a nation now under the rule of a corporacratic oligarchy practicing economic fascism; through the 16th amendment and the Federal Reserve act (both of which I would argue are profoundly unconstitutional) we now are a debtor's colony, owing our life and labor to a foreign banking cartel.

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  19. @ Kurt - Funny. I seem to recall the 60's so much differently than you..... :>)

    To be clear: I'm not sure that I was _ever_ a "mystic", though I admit that I was fascinated by mysticism at various points.

    How did studying philosophy lead to running a "tech company"? I was a musician, which lead to being an engineer, which lead to selling equipment to musicians and engineers, which lead to managing a staff that sold equipment to engineers, which lead to managing a firm that designed, integrated, and supported high-tech systems for the film and television industy... You get the idea.... :>)

    And as to "the framers" and how difficult they've made the job of understanding their intent, I would have to agree with you. Unfortunately, those on the "religious right" insist upon believing that because many of them were deists, their intention was to establish a "Christian nation" and that it is ingrained in the documents of our founding (forgetting the fact that in the forty four hundred words of the Constitution, "God" is not mentioned once). Personally, I don't see a real conflict between their deism and the rational logic of their "Enlightenment" principles.

    All of that said, I am not a scholar on our nation's founding nor am I a scholar on the documents of our founding.

    I am far more interested in our current political circumstances, and our perceptions of what is "left" and what is "right" in our political discourse. I'm quite convinced that those labels really have very little bearing for the vast majority of Americans, who's political beliefs are a hodge-podge of a little bit from this side and a little bit from that side. Trying to put a convenient label on the majority of Americans, and then using that label to dismiss their thoughts, is simply a waste of time...

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  20. That makes sense to me -- most Americans have a patchwork values system politically. I believe this is a symptom of the failure of philosophers to rationally define an objective moral/ethical epistemology based on reason and not faith. Some of the founders believed that religion must exist in America for the Republic to endure, and I must say I perceive that as the religious Christian right gets more ridiculed and marginalized, the progressive left instills more 'common good' anti-intellectualism and inverted moral relativity into the dialogues, we go farther from any real Republic with inviolate adherence to the rule of our own laws, to more intrusion and violation of individual rights.

    Beyond those remarks I would defer to Fred, who is a much greater authority on the subject of the thinking and beliefs of the various founders. Fred?

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  21. I'm still waiting to hear from Dirty, Kurt. He's been geeking out on his new phone for a week now, so I don't know if he's ever going to get back to me. Maybe I should ask him to talk about himself. Okay...

    So, Dirty, tell me a little about yourself. How did you come to know so much about the Constitution and the founding father?

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  22. Guess Dirty really isn't going to get back to me after all. Pity.

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  23. Okay. It looks like this blog is dead, so I'm closing my tab on it. And here I thought Dirty was going to tell us all about how he knew so much about the Constitution. ::snicker:: Ah well, some people just like to spout off nonsense and an internet blog gives them a false sense of importance. Then they figure out that it takes EFFORT to maintain a blog and give up.

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  24. Yes, it DOES require effort to maintain a blog, and it's certainly true that I focus on it when I can. Too much going on in my life to focus on just one thing that is not how I make a living. I probably will comment about either the revolutions in the Middle East or the situation in Wisconsin soon...

    As to knowledge of the Constitution, if you go back and read YOUR comments and mine, you'll note that I have NEVER claimed to know "so much about the Constitution": it was YOU that challenged me because I used the phrase "living document". That apparently got your dander up and, just like someone with OCD or Tourettes, all you could do after that point was to repeatedly challenge me to establish why the Founders wrote the Constitution that they did. You, of course, conveniently ignored the substantial post I made on my view of the Constitution and it's place in current poliltics, i.e. the post this is appended to, most probably because you didn't like my point of view and what you really wanted to do was show off your prowess at all issues Constitutional. Well, have at it "Fred"! Since it's clearly YOU that knows so much about the Constitution, please let us know what YOUR opinions are. Isn't that the point of blogs anyway, to foster dialog? Well then, man up and give some dialog, instead of sitting on the sidelines shooting spitballs at the people actually in the game....

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